The following text is an interview conducted with Vegard "Ihsahn" Sverre, done for heavymetal.dk. A huge part of the Norwegian black metal scene - minus the irresponsible behaviour, he has been pushing the envelope for more than 20 years. He recently made an album paying homage to both synthesizers, hip hop beats and of course the black metal he himself helped create.
Initially conducted via Skype, this is a transcribed edition, complete with laughs for your reading pleasure.
Ihsahn recently dropped his seventh solo album. We sat down for a pleasant conversation about working around self-imposed limitations, not caring about the expectations of others, and of course, what lies behind the claustrophobic sound that is Ámr.
Despite the different styles of expression there are some similarities between Arktis and Ámr, but Ámr seems to me like a darker and more emotional version of your previous album. How did you manage to build further on your sound, without repeating yourself?
He chuckles to himself and tells me of the constant challenge to skip, “muscle memory”, and finding situations and inspirations that keeps him, “enthusiastic and excited about the process”. He pauses for a brief moment before telling me the similarities between Arktis and Ámr are, in his opinion, “mostly because of the focus on song structure.”
He chuckles to himself and tells me of the constant challenge to skip, “muscle memory”, and finding situations and inspirations that keeps him, “enthusiastic and excited about the process”. He pauses for a brief moment before telling me the similarities between Arktis and Ámr are, in his opinion, “mostly because of the focus on song structure.”
“The one prior to them, Das Seelenbrechen, includes more free-form and improvised techniques and, as a contrast, I did Arktis with the challenge in mind to see if I could write an album which is basically within a pop/rock formula.”
Most of the music he listened to growing up falls within that category and in the true spirit of a Norwegian black metal artist, he isn’t afraid to talk about his work.
“Everybody kind of has the intuition or blueprint of what that is - you know that typical pop/rock structure. It’s very challenging to fill those 3½ to 5 minutes with something interesting that still fits within the formula. And, of course, it deviates at times. I think in that respect, the albums are kind of similar. For me, what has changed is really just the scenes I create before I actually start writing any music."
Regarding the comparison with Arktis, he speaks enthusiastically about the major difference between the previous and newest release and mentions the artwork on both albums as preludes to the actual content. In his mind’s eye, the landscape cover art for Arktis together with the metaphors of the lyrics and some of the sounds, suggests the opposite scenario of Ámr.
“For me it’s all kind of happening inside. I wrote up in a sketch that the album happens inside this dark room, so I guess the album art also suggests it happens indoors. It’s also the reason for having a main focus on analogue synthesizer for the arrangements, of course on top of the guitars, because it creates a more intimate and claustrophobic sound.”
Most of the music he listened to growing up falls within that category and in the true spirit of a Norwegian black metal artist, he isn’t afraid to talk about his work.
“Everybody kind of has the intuition or blueprint of what that is - you know that typical pop/rock structure. It’s very challenging to fill those 3½ to 5 minutes with something interesting that still fits within the formula. And, of course, it deviates at times. I think in that respect, the albums are kind of similar. For me, what has changed is really just the scenes I create before I actually start writing any music."
Regarding the comparison with Arktis, he speaks enthusiastically about the major difference between the previous and newest release and mentions the artwork on both albums as preludes to the actual content. In his mind’s eye, the landscape cover art for Arktis together with the metaphors of the lyrics and some of the sounds, suggests the opposite scenario of Ámr.
“For me it’s all kind of happening inside. I wrote up in a sketch that the album happens inside this dark room, so I guess the album art also suggests it happens indoors. It’s also the reason for having a main focus on analogue synthesizer for the arrangements, of course on top of the guitars, because it creates a more intimate and claustrophobic sound.”
Your approach to the synthetic aspect on this album. Is that an homage to the times the keyboard was a crucial part of black metal or did you intend it to be a modern electronic interpretation?
“I would say both.”
This question sparks what turns out to be the first of many trips down memory lane. He states that movie soundtracks are the reason he loves, “mock-up orchestral sounds” in his music. As we all know, horror movie soundtracks are still very much orchestral, and he namedrops the Halloween movies, John Carpenter and the until now unknown to me, Tangerine Dream, then goes on to describe how he fell in love with,
“I would say both.”
This question sparks what turns out to be the first of many trips down memory lane. He states that movie soundtracks are the reason he loves, “mock-up orchestral sounds” in his music. As we all know, horror movie soundtracks are still very much orchestral, and he namedrops the Halloween movies, John Carpenter and the until now unknown to me, Tangerine Dream, then goes on to describe how he fell in love with,
“Music that was all half-out of tune old synthesizers that created this eerie and intimate atmosphere. Strings and horns all create big music, but in the top end in a way. With synthesizers, especially when you use analog synthesizers for bass, it becomes big, but in the low end.”
He stops himself from, in his own words, “tooling off into a walk-through of the history of synthesizers”, with a laugh and draws the conclusion that the old kind of analog synth sounds that he remembers from the past is a huge part of it, but with a modern production. This is where the interview took a bit of a turn. To hear one of the most innovative musicians on this side of metal tell me how he was inspired by modern hip-hop and R ‘n’ B, was surprising, despite it not being all news to me. He speaks with enthusiasm about the power and density of the sub-octave bass, the role played by the fabled 808 and closes the chapter with his trademark combination of passion and humility with a comment on how he, “wanted to see if I could implement that, with my expression of course.”
There’s a lot of jarring turns and edges spread across the album, creating an opposition to the often soft musical arrangements. What effect do you hope it will have on the listener’s experience of the album as a whole?
He exhales sharply and describes how he hopes,
“The juxtaposition of things widens the impact of the album. The frameworks I create would have a scene or a common ground that I can measure all the new ideas, melodies or riffs against and I can kind of hold those ideas up to, you know, the overall goal and see if it fits.“
He hesitates for a moment, choosing his words carefully, before explaining how he expands his sound from album to album.
"I think by having this framework I’m creating a stretch further within the same album, without kind of falling out of the atmosphere, but rather expanding on it and I guess it’s a preference - I like varied music. You need something quiet you know, in between, to have an impact on the loudness. It’s as simple as that.”
He points out how it’s an element some people forget, when making or listening to this type of music. ”The nature of extreme metal is that everything is up to 11, from start to finish.” He laments the subsequent lack of variety and explains how it is necessary to have lows and quiet moments because the peaks are all-important. With a faint chuckle that sounds almost apologetic, he tells me how he’s noticed that when he plays some of his, “more mellow and quiet things, it’s gone down pretty well, even on extreme metal festivals or what have you… having some kind of quiet before it hits again gives that variety. It’s hard to explain why, sometimes I just do.”
He exhales sharply and describes how he hopes,
“The juxtaposition of things widens the impact of the album. The frameworks I create would have a scene or a common ground that I can measure all the new ideas, melodies or riffs against and I can kind of hold those ideas up to, you know, the overall goal and see if it fits.“
He hesitates for a moment, choosing his words carefully, before explaining how he expands his sound from album to album.
"I think by having this framework I’m creating a stretch further within the same album, without kind of falling out of the atmosphere, but rather expanding on it and I guess it’s a preference - I like varied music. You need something quiet you know, in between, to have an impact on the loudness. It’s as simple as that.”
He points out how it’s an element some people forget, when making or listening to this type of music. ”The nature of extreme metal is that everything is up to 11, from start to finish.” He laments the subsequent lack of variety and explains how it is necessary to have lows and quiet moments because the peaks are all-important. With a faint chuckle that sounds almost apologetic, he tells me how he’s noticed that when he plays some of his, “more mellow and quiet things, it’s gone down pretty well, even on extreme metal festivals or what have you… having some kind of quiet before it hits again gives that variety. It’s hard to explain why, sometimes I just do.”
Can you point to one thing that you would say is the common denominator that connects all your previous solo albums with the newest one or are they all headed in their own direction?
He takes a deep breath as if he has an answer ready but instead lets out a heavy, almost resigned sigh. He makes a few false starts before finally getting the needle in the groove with a conclusive,“They all connect very naturally together!” He tells me how even when he did The Adversary, he knew he would make it into a trilogy, long before he wanted to do any live shows.
He takes a deep breath as if he has an answer ready but instead lets out a heavy, almost resigned sigh. He makes a few false starts before finally getting the needle in the groove with a conclusive,“They all connect very naturally together!” He tells me how even when he did The Adversary, he knew he would make it into a trilogy, long before he wanted to do any live shows.
“Rather than just continuing where I left off with Emperor, I wanted to start over and create a musical platform of my own.”
He then proceeds to describe each album to me and beginning with the return to his heavy metal roots, and how he essentially started from scratch. The second one cultivated his expression and it didn’t take him more than until the third album to find his platform.
“It was far more experimental, you know, with extra guitars, saxophone and more conceptual in the atmosphere I think and I felt very much at home with what I ended up hearing.”
He talks about the fourth and how he needed a natural deviation from what he had been doing so far and how it was vital to, “reset the parameters and not become too comfortable.” Das Seelenbrechen is a very experimental album with a lot of, “free form stuff”, which he states was a truly improvisational thesis, something he found both liberating and scary at the same time.
“As a response to that I did Arktis, which was very firm and melodic and recognizable. I guess as an answer to Arktis that was very almost organic in a way I think and for me it’s a very positively laden record.”
He falters a bit, trying to find the words to describe how he tried to span the gap between,
“an arctic, wide-open landscape to an inside and dark scene. I peeled away a lot of the more high-end arrangements and focused on a darker, electronic sub-driven atmosphere. It’s kind of just a natural progression, but also sometimes an answer to the previous record.”
What's the most rewarding part of the process for you, when it comes to constructing music?
This time there is no hesitation, no stopping to think. He lets out a hearty laugh and tells me,
“It’s those few seconds where the speakers play back something I made, and I have no idea how it got there, but I’m going to take credit for it.”
Do you think your background as a member of one of the most influential bands in this genre gives you more freedom to experiment with the format, as opposed to not having that sort of seniority?
“I think that gave me a lot of experience and I came into the more serious way of thinking about music very early on…”
His voice takes on a dreamy edge as he looks back on a lifetime of music. He relays how he’s been musically inclined since the age of six,
“… but it didn’t really take up much focus until I got my first electric guitar when I was 10 or 11. I immediately started playing in bands and I think by 12 I had my first four-track recorded.”
I nod in silent sympathy with the teenaged Vegard, who by the tender age of 13 started playing in a band with not only Samoth, but also older boys of the ripe age of 16.
“To me they were grown-ups that had recorded a professional demo in a studio, so by joining these older guys I didn’t get away with anything. I really had to be up to the part, to stay in the band. I guess I was lucky at that age to find someone who was far more experienced than me, so I had to give all I got and get into the mindset.”
“To me they were grown-ups that had recorded a professional demo in a studio, so by joining these older guys I didn’t get away with anything. I really had to be up to the part, to stay in the band. I guess I was lucky at that age to find someone who was far more experienced than me, so I had to give all I got and get into the mindset.”
He kept that particular mindset through his other bands up to, and including, Emperor and he concludes how his hard work from the beginning, made him into such a versatile musician.
“I think my background started with keyboard, then piano, then guitar. Somehow, I ended up singing and it became my responsibility at a very young age, to take care of the arrangements and eventually all the lyrics. Eventually I built a studio of my own, over the years”.
He drifts off and I ask him if it helped to infuse him with a musical discipline. He responds with an enthusiastic,
“Yeah, yeah! And of course, we signed to Candlelight Records when I was 16, so I never really had a proper job. Everyone else works at... you know, the gas station at that age but I never did anything like that. I’ve been able to put all my working hours into music, which is of course, a privilege.”
Did fans of Emperor welcome your solo project or did your fan base change all together?
This question cements my suspicion that every Norwegian is secretly an impressionist because his answer includes a spot-on parody on those who claim to be experts on what black metal is or isn’t.
“Both yes and no. Both. Some fans would go, “Oooh, this is not Emperor. This is not black metal!” They said that about the last Emperor album too. That I did on my own, so, you know, to each his own. Some prefer the first or the second and kind of wanted it to be like that. Some prefer AC/DC, some prefer Radiohead. Some like change, some don’t.”
Regarding his background in Emperor he tells me they never tried to fit in, quite the opposite.
“There was no scene, so we never intended anything to be successful or hit a certain market. It became more a consequence of us being so narrow-minded. Probably that’s the only way we ended up having a career in the first place. Because we didn’t try to make it in any established scene. We just did something that eventually became something exotic in its own right and carved out a place of its own.”
The conversation returns to present day and he ponders for a moment the fact that apart from A-ha, there’s not really that many Norwegian musicians out there with an international career.
"So having that mindset and a bit of luck, it became a thing of its own. I like to kind of stick to that privilege and that method to whatever I do and not to be disrespectful of the people who actually follow my music and buy my albums. If they didn’t do that, I wouldn’t be talking to you about my seventh album obviously, I’m very grateful for that.”
He takes a small break as if to gather his thoughts and ventures a guess as to why people are drawn to his music; he believes it’s because they want something that’s “real and honest”, he believes they seek music that doesn’t just smooth itself into their ears.
“They want something that is uncompromising and kind of very…. made in an egocentric way.”
With a loud laugh devoid of false humility and self-deprivation he concludes: “At least that’s what I tell myself, so I feel good about doing my own thing regardless.”
"So having that mindset and a bit of luck, it became a thing of its own. I like to kind of stick to that privilege and that method to whatever I do and not to be disrespectful of the people who actually follow my music and buy my albums. If they didn’t do that, I wouldn’t be talking to you about my seventh album obviously, I’m very grateful for that.”
He takes a small break as if to gather his thoughts and ventures a guess as to why people are drawn to his music; he believes it’s because they want something that’s “real and honest”, he believes they seek music that doesn’t just smooth itself into their ears.
“They want something that is uncompromising and kind of very…. made in an egocentric way.”
With a loud laugh devoid of false humility and self-deprivation he concludes: “At least that’s what I tell myself, so I feel good about doing my own thing regardless.”
Black metal comes in many forms. Can you share with us your view on the dos and don’ts that helped shape the genre the last 25 years?
“I’ve often said, “Being black metal is a state of mind.” To me black metal is not blast beats and synthesized guitars and screaming. It’s whatever conjures up that abstract feeling inside. Diamanda Galas can be as black metal and conjure up those feelings just as much as the old Bathory.”
Suddenly serious, he lets me know in so many words he is well aware of the fact some people might not see his current outlet as black metal. But to him, it is.
“I don’t care what people call it, but that feeling inside, the source from where I create everything, is very much the same as when I first started out. And every new song and every new album is another attempt to reach or get closer to that abstract goal, or maybe, reflect those core instincts in different ways.”
Looking back on his previous albums, he finds a lot of recurring themes and states of mind.
“It’s what I do. It’s an uncompromising searching, longing in music. That’s what black metal is to me.”
Speaking both of and on behalf of the black metal scene, he feels that the many subgenres can result in a form of commercialization which will lead to a “fashion police to tell you the dos and don’ts.” He puts his verbal foot down and states he thinks,
“The whole point in the philosophy is absolutely having NO dos and don’ts. I thought the point was carved out of the, “do what thou will, it is the whole of the law”, you know, and to put it like this - who would want a black metal album where the people making it, were dictating it by what the audience was expecting?”
He muses over what kind of black metal attitude would go into that and lets out another hearty laugh at the thought of the huge paradox of the words “oh it’s not black metal anymore!” His voice takes on a sharp edge, as he states,
“If you did whatever the f*ck you wanted, it’s true. If you don’t like it, it’s up to you. I get this a lot as well, ‘Oh how come you’re doing all this experimental music now’”
He underlines his point by bringing Ulver into the equation,
“He was black metal and now he’s doing electronic music, but to me it’s almost strange, that not more artists from that original Norwegian scene does that.”
He is fascinated by how not more of those guys do more experimental music,
“We were or are in that scene. We were teenagers pushing the envelope of what you can do musically, to a rather extreme point. And I think it’s very sad if you stop that process at age 17.”
With so many artists from back then still active, he finds it strange that very few of them stayed in that mindset of,
“developing and searching for the edges of what they could do musically. I would have expected more people doing more experimental music from that scene and what eventually came out of it.“
Speaking both of and on behalf of the black metal scene, he feels that the many subgenres can result in a form of commercialization which will lead to a “fashion police to tell you the dos and don’ts.” He puts his verbal foot down and states he thinks,
“The whole point in the philosophy is absolutely having NO dos and don’ts. I thought the point was carved out of the, “do what thou will, it is the whole of the law”, you know, and to put it like this - who would want a black metal album where the people making it, were dictating it by what the audience was expecting?”
He muses over what kind of black metal attitude would go into that and lets out another hearty laugh at the thought of the huge paradox of the words “oh it’s not black metal anymore!” His voice takes on a sharp edge, as he states,
“If you did whatever the f*ck you wanted, it’s true. If you don’t like it, it’s up to you. I get this a lot as well, ‘Oh how come you’re doing all this experimental music now’”
He underlines his point by bringing Ulver into the equation,
“He was black metal and now he’s doing electronic music, but to me it’s almost strange, that not more artists from that original Norwegian scene does that.”
He is fascinated by how not more of those guys do more experimental music,
“We were or are in that scene. We were teenagers pushing the envelope of what you can do musically, to a rather extreme point. And I think it’s very sad if you stop that process at age 17.”
With so many artists from back then still active, he finds it strange that very few of them stayed in that mindset of,
“developing and searching for the edges of what they could do musically. I would have expected more people doing more experimental music from that scene and what eventually came out of it.“
Black metal is almost trendy in Denmark these days. But do you think the attention from the mainstream waters drown the concept or will black metal finally get the recognition it deserves?
"I think this age waters it out. It’s kind of high time we get something new and extreme. The Sex Pistols were extremely shocking in the 1970s but not as much in the 1980s. In the beginning of the 1990s Norwegian black metal was an extreme and shocking thing.”
He searches for the words to describe what shocking is today and points the finger in the general direction of mainstream entertainment. Watching Netflix, his children are already exposed to more sex and violence than he was at that age and commercials like the ones we have today he tells me with a chuckle would have been X-rated when he was young,
”The envelope of what people are accustomed to is pushed these days, so this music has already kind of lost some of the edge. For shock value now, it should be something new.”
We touch upon the subject of whether extreme metal has become politically correct and Ihsahn has no doubt in his mind that yes, it has,
“In a kind of un-charming way. I’m not talking about all of them. But on social media, everyone is becoming too personal and it loses some of the craziness and the magic. Everyone was so absorbed by the music. They were crazy. And now you don’t really get to that level of crazy anymore.”
What do you think the future looks like for black metal?
Apparently, this is not an easy question to answer because the silence is deafening. But you can’t NOT have an opinion on the music you helped forward and the answer is right in front of us.
“I think black metal as a genre is more like a relic. Like something people have a nostalgic relationship with.”
He pauses again, and I almost feel sorry for him, sitting there in his turtleneck, trying to predict a future he himself is shaping. With a tone of finality, he states his hopes of, “someone younger getting into it”, something he hopes will push the edges a bit further and I recall the image of a handful of teenagers pushing said edges back in the 90s, as he tells me with a laugh he, “always found it very hard to talk about the black metal scene because I hardly know what that is anymore.” Of course, I must inquire about his own role in all of this and he promptly responds with a chuckle and how he’s, “very comfortable”, in his studio, doing his own thing. Once again, his smooth Norwegian accent-tinted voice takes on a soft edge, when we dig into the bigger picture of Ihsahn vs. Vegard.
“Getting to choose the people I work with and after getting to do Emperor, I am now seven albums into my solo career and still people are not sick of it! I get to do what I love and at the same time maintain my life. My children, my dogs. I’m a very private person. And occasionally I can go out and play my solo stuff with some fantastic musicians and I can go out with my old friends with Emperor and play shows I really…”, his voice falters a bit and for a moment I can feel him drifting through the layers of nostalgia. “If someone told me when I was ten years old, people will build you custom guitars…”, I divert his attention to his custom-made instrument and through his enthusiastic recount of composite materials vs. natural, I suspect that professional nostalgia is not for him – a fact that is further backed up by his approach to black metal.
You can more or less choose freely when it comes to potential collaborations, but with whom would you most want to work with?
“It’s hard to say. I have some projects I’ve got going on. I’m producing an album on the side, but Rob Halford has been mentioning he wants to do a black metal album. Me and him discussed this in the early 2000s but then he rejoined Judas Priest.”
“It’s hard to say. I have some projects I’ve got going on. I’m producing an album on the side, but Rob Halford has been mentioning he wants to do a black metal album. Me and him discussed this in the early 2000s but then he rejoined Judas Priest.”
He casually mentions Nergal from Behemoth in the same sentence and the thought of a collaboration between those three throws me off track and I agree with his sentiment of how amazing it would be. Suddenly serious, he states it’s something that has to be done properly. He lets the professional façade slip for a second and the awe is clear in his voice, when the talk falls on Halford, to whom he refers as a gentleman”.
“But you can’t get past the fact he’s the god of metal. Nergal as well is someone I deeply admire. He is one of those from the black metal scene who, I think, has a positive influence.” It becomes clear that Nergal is held in high regards with my interviewee.
“He has integrity and doesn’t hide behind a mask. He embodies his philosophy. I take him equally serious on stage with Behemoth in make-up, as when he’s making jokes and laughing his ass off on Instagram because there are no games with him. And that’s what I think is the future of black metal. People who take their individuality and their own life seriously and that, very much, is what black metal is all about.”
“But you can’t get past the fact he’s the god of metal. Nergal as well is someone I deeply admire. He is one of those from the black metal scene who, I think, has a positive influence.” It becomes clear that Nergal is held in high regards with my interviewee.
“He has integrity and doesn’t hide behind a mask. He embodies his philosophy. I take him equally serious on stage with Behemoth in make-up, as when he’s making jokes and laughing his ass off on Instagram because there are no games with him. And that’s what I think is the future of black metal. People who take their individuality and their own life seriously and that, very much, is what black metal is all about.”
Are there any genres you haven’t explored yet, you want to look into in the future?
He laughs and with a typical-for-Scandinavians understated response tells me,
“Oooh, many many many! But uhm... my skills are very limited in that regard, so I just pick bits and pieces and add them to my distorted guitar and screaming”.
He laughs and with a typical-for-Scandinavians understated response tells me,
“Oooh, many many many! But uhm... my skills are very limited in that regard, so I just pick bits and pieces and add them to my distorted guitar and screaming”.
Are you gonna pull an Ulver on us one day, and go 100% electronic?
He hums and haws a bit, before finally deciding on an, “I don’t think so.” He points out what to him, is the major difference between those two directions,
“I think it’s the type of vocals I do, and my guitar playing is second nature to me. In some way I think that will always be a part of my music. I like to explore, but I never have an intention of sounding like someone else. I just want to try and sound like me in different ways.”
He seems very clear on the subject but tells me a bit about some of the other projects he’s been involved in - music that doesn’t employ either vocals or guitars. “For some smaller format it would be interesting to try out the other stuff, but I can’t really see myself changing entirely and doing an electronic project.”
Why haven’t you been in Denmark in… ever?
This has been on my mind quite a lot and my research has confirmed the fact that Ihsahn has never played in our tiny kingdom. He points an accusing finger towards his booking agent and then lets me know in convoluted terms, that maybe that’s going to change. Trying very hard not to either reveal or promise too much is of the essence but he tells me,
“We’re planning a shorter European tour for this album. Nothing is set in stone as of yet, it’s complicated… but I do hope.”
He laments the fact that he hasn’t played that many shows on this latitude, especially when he, laughing as he recounts the past, has been five times to Japan.
And suddenly, we’re out of time. I thank him for his time and ask him to do me one last favour: A few words to his Danish fans. Ever agreeable he thanks you all for your support and wants you to know he hopes he gets to play here soon. “…this fall, I hope it’s gonna happen.”
